boilertemp. can't be reached

[didier]

Hello Again,
i had started a thread before but finally got help from Jannich at MBE and untill today i have my boiler up and running.
It is burning all of the pellets nicely.

BUT ...

Here's my house: about 250 m² , roof not insulated (will be done asap), double glass windows, only one floor.
I have 11 heating elements.
The boiler is a 6months old WOODY 30kw and the burner is a 24kw.
This is connected to a 800L buffertank and the temperature we are demanding in the house is 23°.

NOW the FACTS:
I can't reach more in the house then 21° and now it is outside around 5°.
Before all of this it was outside -5° and we had the same.
I need to play with the inside temperatur knob to get the boiler first heat up the buffertank untill it reaches 75° and then i can get nice warm water into the elements wich brings me around 21° in the house.
When i leave the boiler burning whole day around let's say 24 hours, buffertank and house temperature drops below 50°.
So the only thing i can say is that my complete system is not heavy enough but this seems to me unbelievable.

I can't believe that my system is not heavy enough to produce more heat into the house.....Hey i am living in Belgium and not the north pole.....

Sorry to ask over here but i am really depending on my own as my installation guy is : not enough qualified to handle these kind of systems, rather lazy then tired, not answering the phone, shortly ask MBE they know him and they will confirm my thoughts about him and his skils.

I do not want to call MBE again because i do understand they have plenty of work and first of all it should be my installation guy that needs to be helping me not MBE.
Jannich helped me out very good on the Black pellets and now the burner is running fine but not producing enough heat.

WHAT can i do to produce more heat, also i am now consuming allready 60kg of pellets every day...it runs 24hours every day and still not enough heat....i do not live in a tent.....

here are my settings:
I have 816gr. at 6 minutes.
A=12
B=17
C=16 (why not 24kw) ??
G=11

1=80°
2=9.7
3=32
4=12

I also have a ladomat but her are the temperatures= 64°going to the tank, 64° goint to the boiler and as low as 35° returning from the tank.

I know 35° is low but i can't get the buffertank heated up enough, i need to shut down the warmth in the house to give the boiler time to heat up the water in the tank untill ladomat opens return at 60° and then i can open the heating elements again....but then the temperature drops again because of all the cold water from the heating elements returning into the tank.

What can i do to get the burner and boiler strong enough to heat up or to give more power?
Please without spending more pellets because i am allready consuming 60kg a day wich i find a lot...
I need to clean the ashtray every 2 days otherwise it is overfilled with ashes....

I paid over 14000euro's to get warm in the house, i need to find help myself because of lack of the installation guy and still no warmth in the house....
This is not very fine for me and my family because we have cold in the house and spended a lot of money for nothing but troubles and lot's of work trying to solve this problem.
thanks for any help.

[didier]

Also i would like to add this.

I did buy this installation because it looked very good quality and proffesional but....

This is the salesmen talk: the only thing you need to do is fill up the silo and clean the ashtray and boiler some times.
SO how many times? Oh the boiler, you need to clean once in 2 months maybe and the ashtray about every 2 weeks.

THIS IS RUBBISH TALK: i need to clean the boiler every week, i need to clean the ashtray every 2 day's otherwise i am in trouble....

If only i had these experiences before i would never have bought a pellet system, i takes me to much work in getting things running fine, cleaning the boiler is not a nice thing to do.
It is good that i am young but how about the older people who are going to buy these kind of systems.....i do not see them doing this cleaning job every week.....

Also, the system needs a lot of changes, i read plenty of threads and when i translate them in google i see that a lot of people have trouble with these pellet burners boilers, almost everybody is continiously changing settings into theyre system....
how is it possible people want to do all of this work, i really do not have the time to check my heating system every day, i can't afford inspection cleaning every day!!

Also the manual does not mention the FABRIC settings where you can change the blower settings....
I have learned to do this trough Jannich.
I do understand we have to change more pellets more blow but WHY, tell me WHY do i have to shut down my power and then push SET to get into this HIDDEN menu...
Now every time you just want to change blower speed, youre boiler needs to shut down and needs to heat up again before you can see any changes that you made, this is time consuming and also spoiling the electric ignition every time you need to change a blower setting.

Don't tell me you do not need to change blower settings often because when i read the threads they are always talking about changing pellets feed and changing blower speed...
WHY don't they put the blower speed into the usual menu instead of the HIDDEN menu.

Sorry, i am not trowing my problems to MBE with this message but it is a fact that i read these changing settings continiously trough all of the threads and the HIDDEN menu really should not be a HIDDEN menu.

[Energi Bornholm]

Hey there.. 

You almost live in a tent.....without insulated in the roof  !!!

A 24 kw burner will normaly heat up 500 m2  

60 kg a day is  2,5 kg/hour   ~ 12 KW/hour !!! not 24 KW

23 °  is ..  Every 1 °  will take about 5 to 6 % ekstra In DK 21-22°  is standart temp.

When I read what you write, it seems that you need a OPTIMA by a prof. company....

But to help you out, try this ..


A=12 Air LOW
B=17 ( 22 - 25 ) Air MAX will give you air to 24 KW ( When you found the right level, you never has to do this again ( The hidden menu is normaly for your service company) Remember the right amount of pellets.
C=16 (why not 24kw) ?? If this is the KW Change to 24  
G=11  Blow on ign ??

1=80°
2=9.7 ( 8 -10 ) Pellets LOW
3=32 ( 35 - 55 )  Pellets HIGH No smoke on chimney when it is on 100 %  (When you see the smoke go 4-5 % back )
4=12

Also remember that some pellets are SHIT...

Regards Flemming

And yes in this kind of system you have to clean the burner and ashtray every 14 day, the boiler sides after every 1000 kg in winter time to get good ekonomi.


There are systems double price there will clean them self..

http://www.vaillant.de/Produkte/Pelletheizung/
Or
http://www.windhager.com/int/products/pellet-heating-systems/biowin/
Or
http://www.viessmann.dk/etc/medialib/internet-dk/brochure/engelsk_1.Par.61899.File.File.tmp/Vitolig%202003_07_GB.pdf

[Frank_rasmussen]

I am an office man my self  but I do most of my changes to parameters of my NBE boiler from the computer.

There are two computer programs ( so called Interfaces) that can be use on new NBE boilers:

http://www.stokerkontrol.dk/index.php?page=main&lang=uk :
Also in a german version if you prefer...

http://www.mitpillefyr.dk/koeb.aspx In danish at the moment, but 30 days free trial period.

These interfaces will cost you money, but they will make your life easier and more safe in my opion.

The reason for the hidden blower parameters is that you only change these when you change blower type (=never or perhaps ones in our lifetime).

The interfaces give you easy access to hidden menus. In some versions of the controller even access to parameters that you can't change in the normal menus.

Which chip version do you have?

Have you made tests where you adjust the pellet amount (or blower if thats possible in your chip version) so you get smoke coming from the chimney?

You then adjust the boiler to just below the point where the chimney smokes.

I think this point is were the money (and in your case: also the heat) lays...

Please notice that I a newcomer to pellet burners, and that you properbly need help from professionals. The rate you are burning pellets (=losing money) I really think you should get an Optima-visit or call NBE again.

[BoinkUser]

This is the salesmen talk: the only thing you need to do is fill up the silo and clean the ashtray and boiler some times.
SO how many times? Oh the boiler, you need to clean once in 2 months maybe and the ashtray about every 2 weeks.

THIS IS RUBBISH TALK: i need to clean the boiler every week, i need to clean the ashtray every 2 day's otherwise i am in trouble....

Hi,

Your system is not adjusted correct, keep up the mood, several people in this forum will help you.

Just to convince you, that everything will be fine, look at these facts of my Woody installation that is warming 238 m2 in a poorly isolated house:
I clean the boiler every 2 months where i also empty the ashes. (this is too rare according to many others, but however this is what i do)
I clean the plate once every month.
I am only touching blower/auger etc. everytime i get a new load of pellets, this is at most 4 times a year.
I am using 5-6 tons of pellets/year

To have room for 2 months of ashes in the Winther i have to "stamp" the ashes from time to time (every 14 day right now where i use most pellets) - you can call me lazy, but it takes 1 minute and the system can run additional 14 days without interaction from me.

Ofcourse, the more you clean the boiler, the more you save. But 5-6 tons of pellets a year is very good compared to the huge amount of gas that were used before i had the Woody, so i am very happy, and the time used for cleaning is minimized by doing it every 2 months.

Think this is better than what you are promised by the salesman, and these are real facts. I am 100% sure your system will run just as well, when you get it adjusted correcly.

Regards and best wishes with tuning your system.
Jens

[didier]

Hello to all,
after reading the last 3 posts i have some answers for all of them.

first to Flemming:

Yess you could call it a tent but it got warmed up trough a stupid gasboiler 24kw before, offcourse with extreme prices of gas we changed over to the pellets system.
We did the huge investment because we made the count to gain it back from the lower price in consuming pellets.
Also I was shown a installation in a bigger house with more heating elements, NO buffertank, only a pelletboiler.
The guy showed me his house, he had NO double glass windows and also NO roof insulation, also a old house.
So i was convinced it should do the same in my house at least even better because we had the double glass windows and we would go for the Buffertank.....

To Frank:
I was thinking of buying this kind of system in the future but untill i can't get it up and running nicely and heating up the house as it should be, offcourse i am postponing any extra investments on the pellets system, I would rather put the money into my roof insulation before buying any extra software to run my pellets sytem.
I have system 4.99 in the controller.
I also have the newer WOODY model boiler wich has a small ashtray.

To Jens;
Thanks for keeping up my mood,
this is really wath I need because after a while people lose theyre trust into the investment they made just because of some misery.
I AM REALLY CONVINCED IN THE PELLETS SYSTEM and if it was not so i would have lost my faithe allready few months ago because i have read to much information on the internet from other user with really other cheaper installations then my own and even they can heat up theyre OLD NOT INSULATED HOUSES.

TO ALL OF YOU:
Look i am not writing these things because i am not happy with the quality of my installation, i love my new pellets system from MBE and i have faith in it, I know it is only a question of finetuning everything.
Finally this is what i told you before, I got the burner finetuned trough calling Jannich at MBE, i got him at the phone during several hours wich cost me also money and really was not my JOB to do this, it should be my installation guy doing these things.
He is the men that sold me the installation and he should have it finetuned for me, not Jannich and myself.
But as stated before, because of his lack I am depending on my own and really I do not want to call MBE every time, I am also independant and i know what it is if customers keep on calling me during office hours.....
we loose plenty of time and money wich we could use in doing other more interesting things like inproving technology
for newer systems.

[didier]

Now here's more news from today:
I called my salesmen today and he offered me to put a pelletstove into my house just to get more heat untill we got a good solution for finetuning the system. Let's say he just bought some more sparetime before things run out of hands....

So here's what we have now, once we installed the stove (7kw) I immediatly shut down 3 big heating elements in the room where we had put the stove and guess what, the buffertank bottom meter raised 10° up to 45° instead of 35° after 1hour and half running with 3 elements shut down.
This shows me I am right, my burner and boiler can't keep up for heating the 800liters buffertank + the 11 elements and tubing.

SO, eather my burner/boiler installation is not heavy enough KW or as flemming says, i am not running on 24KW, so what to do...
Yess Flemming i tried many kinds of pellets and i know there is bullshit on the market but at the moment I am running good quality pellets and we have good ashes so I would not blame the pellets.

The only thing is, i got the installation up and running with jannich burning good ashes now and I am scared in changing settings to have black burned pellets again or spending allready more pellets thn I am doing today ... 60kg a day and no heat...

Anyway, the extra pelletstove running 24hours will take another 30kg a day, at least that is what the salesmen told me.
Finally FLEMMING has it to the right end somewhere because he says 60kgr a day is not burning 24kw.
EXACT as the salesmen said the stove would consume 30kg a day and the stove is only a 7KW.....

So where the hell to change my system running on24kw as it should be.....

thanks for all the help, it is really appreciated. 

[didier]

more questions and info to add,
I allso need to clean the burner grate every 2 days because IF I do not do this, the amount of burned (half burned) pellets is so high on the grate that the burner does not run fine anymore and i get more black burned pellets in the ashtray again.

Maybe I should raise the CLEANING POWER allso? this should be E3, this was 30 and Jannich asked me to put 40 but maybe it still is not enough to clean the grate maybe I should raise to 50?
E1 cleaning interval is now set at 3 minutes, before it was only 15minutes. probably allso another reason the grate was NOT cleaned often enough.

Anyway these things really take time to have it tuned because i can only see visible progress after some days of burning.....

I will keep you all informed.

[F.Rasmussen]

why is your boiler set up with a buffer tank - do you have another boiler for firewood?

The whole idea of a modern pelletsburner is that is produces just enough heat to cover what your house consumes - so therefore there should be no need for storing heat in a tank

I understand that your burner is not delivering what it should - but for the moment perhabs you could shut the tank off to help the burner reach temperature - maybe it would "buy" you some time to work out your burner-trouble

[Frank_rasmussen]

Do you have a draft regulator (like this http://www.hedestoker.dk/shop/item.asp?id=2676) ?

An unclean burner grate could indicate to much air for the amount of pellet i point 2 and 3 on page 4 of http://nordjyskbioenergi.noweb.dk/assets/Scotte%20manual%202008.pdf (Sorry, I could only find a danish version..'Point' = danish: 'Punkt')

Did you adjust point 2 and 3 to just smoke coming out of the chimney, and then set them to JUST no smoke coming out of the chimney?

[stoto]

Hi

I think your problem could be that the connection between the pellet unit and the tank is a bottle neck. It doesnt help that your burner produce 16KW, nicely if the tank cant receive the same amount of energy.

Is it possible for you to bypass the tank, and let the hot water be pumped directly from the pellet boiler to your house?

[didier]

Hello, yess I do have a draft regulator in the chimney and it is open (one of the problems with the black pellets, someone closed and locked  the draftregulator).

Yesterday we have changed the ladomat pump thermostat to a lower kind of thermostat, it should open now at 45° before that it was only opening around 65° wich i never reached.

The installation guy brought us the extra pelletstove and it helped a lot warming up the house, outside temperature it higher also so at the moment everything seems to work fine but today is testing day....
I just have shut of the pelletstove, and opened all the heating elements, now i will check if we get everything heat up without any more troubles.

The buffertank now reaches the temperature it should have, let's hope everything works out fine now.

[didier]

About the buffertank, it was the installation guy's IDEA, he convinced me to buy that extra buffertank and ladomatpump and special controller...

I can use it for later when i want to put the sun collectors on the roof, then have it all connected to the buffertank.

OH, yess i also thought about shutting down the buffertank temporarily but I can't because inside the buffertank is another tank wich i need for hot water in the house...otherwise we can't have a bath anymore.... I guess we all like to take a bath sometimes a week don't we?

SO about buffertanks...take care, have it in mind when you ever have trouble with it....you loose not only the heating but also the hot water in the house....better to have seperate tanks i suppose...